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Kickass Couples Podcast

How Does a Woman Build Her Best Most Intimate Relationship – Ep. 114 SPECIAL – Ft. Jessica Jennings & Pastor Frank Legette III

By August 2, 2023No Comments



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Pastor Frank Legette, Kimberly Hoffman, Jessica Jennings, Matthew Hoffman


Matthew Hoffman  00:07

Welcome back, everybody to the Kickass Couples Podcast. I am excited that we have a fantastic panel discussion. I have the favorite person in the world on my left, I get to do this with her. And I’m grateful to be here. And we have two amazing panelists I’m gonna tell you more about in just a moment. The title of this special episode is how does a woman build her best most intimate relationship and joining us to have that discussion today. We have Jessica Jennings. She is an elite KCN Kickass Couples nation coach. She is in private practice in Charlottesville, Virginia. And she and her husband also have the greatest marriage ever, where they work with couples and individuals on how they can be and have the best relationship. Jessica, fun to have you with us today.


Jessica Jennings  04:23

Thanks for having me. It’s good to be here.


Matthew Hoffman  04:26

Our pleasure. And then we also have the dynamic. The guy who has I think one of the best smiles that I’ve ever seen. Pastor Frank Legette. He is an author, a coach, a speaker, and he’s been pastoring for a short 40 years and doing all kinds of wonderful things. So Frank, we are so glad to have you with us and can’t wait to hear what you have to say about this topic today.


Pastor Frank Legette  04:49

Look, the pleasure is all mine. I can assure you.


Matthew Hoffman  04:53

Thank you. Thank you. So I want to do a little framing of a discussion here. Before we dive in and the quote I want to share with you today says, Dear men, you might think she wants your car, your money and gifts. But the right woman wants your time. Your smile, your honesty, your effort, and you choosing to put her as a priority. I found another great article from Is that what a woman wants in a man according to experts, so here’s eight things. These are the eight things they said, This is what women want out of the man. They said, they want confidence, trustworthiness, integrity, compassion, emotional availability, respect, a sense of humor, and maturity. So coming out of the gate, I would love to hear from Frank and Jessica, isn’t that easy? Do we just have to do those eight things? And we’re golden? Or what? What is it that we have to do to have a woman build her best, most intimate relationship?


Pastor Frank Legette  06:00

Jessica, ladies before gentlemen. Beauty before age. So I’m gonna defer.


Jessica Jennings  06:09

You’re too kind. Well, that’s a great question. I think a lot of women these days, men as well. But since we’re focusing on women, a lot of women are searching for lasting love, they’re searching for something that is going to be significant and meaningful and deep. And I do think there’s 8 things that are really powerful and really beautiful, that they’re focused on something under the surface. And I think our culture is so drawn, our eye initially is so drawn to the externals, right. And that’s what we think matters most. But what if, as you’re speaking of that, we are building into ourselves, these qualities, and then we are realizing we deserve them. And therefore we are looking for them in the person and the relationship that we are building. And so I definitely think those eight things are wonderful. I also think that looking beneath the surface to all these things that are more valuable than just what we see on the outside, I think that’s going to be an important thing we’re going to talk a lot about in this episode, and I’m so excited to be here with you to mine the jewels and gems of what it is that we need to be looking for in someone else, but also cultivating in ourselves to have that depth of relationship that will truly satisfy.


Matthew Hoffman  07:26

Yeah, beautifully said. What would you add to that, Frank? 


Pastor Frank Legette  07:31

And I agree with everything that was said, including those eight things, but here’s my experience, wedding day, you’ve got you’ve got the bride, you got the groom, you got the preacher, the priests, rabbi, whatever, you got the crowd. And the pastor, the priest, starts off addressing the husband first. And he asks a series of questions. He says, Do you husband, take this woman calls her name to be your lawfully wedded wife? Do you promise to listen to the words? Do you promise to love and cherish her good times in bed for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health and good times in bed? Every man on the planet says yes, I promised to do that. And then we go about not immediately not doing one of them. Yes, many men love. But they are in my experience over 40 years, I have found that there are few men who love and cherish their wives, wives want to be loved and cherished would look wives, women on the best people on the planet with very few exceptions. Which is, which is my belief. And so and so women don’t women don’t typically care how much money you have. They don’t care how you know what, what’s your drive, and you don’t have to drive the latest car. You don’t have to put them in the most fabulous house. They want to know how much you love and cherish them are they are priority in your life. And when they are. There’s nothing she won’t do to please you she will go to the ends of the earth, pleasing you because you make her a priority. And when she’s way down on your totem pole, you’re going to have the guy is going to have issues. She wants to be loved and cherished. That’s my answer. That’s my story. I’m sticking to it.


Matthew Hoffman  09:36

Amen. Love that. And you know what you said a word that I mentioned in my introduction, and Jessica touched on it to our platform and Kickass Couples Nation and this reason we have this podcast is to teach people, Frank how to prioritize their partner, their spouse, their husband, their wife. I’m a firm believer. That’s the only problem that people have in a relationship period. They’re putting something else ahead of that person. They said I do. And I will. And I agree with everything that you had to say there.


Kimberly Hoffman  10:13



Pastor Frank Legette  10:13

Can I? Hey, man, can I just jump in and say just real quick? Let me say this real quick. 


Matthew Hoffman  10:17



Pastor Frank Legette  10:18

 I was invited up to church in April to do a presentation. And I was dealing with just the men. And I did the presentation talking about men need to love their husbands that that comes from scripture, Ephesians chapter five. And I said, you don’t need just to love them, you need to love and cherish them. And the question was asked, Pastor, how do I cherish my wife? Well, first of all, you got to make her priority. She can’t be second, third, fourth, fifth, tenth on your list, she’s got to be a priority in your life. And when she’s cherished, she will feel the love and she will respond to the love.


Matthew Hoffman  10:59

 Sure. Very well said. 


Kimberly Hoffman  11:02

So I feel like a woman has to really break through a lot of barriers to be successful, at home within her home, with her family and her children at work, you know, with her physical presence and being and with her spouse and or her partner. And so, why are women not getting what they want? What’s the barrier? What’s in the way?


Jessica Jennings  11:29

I think often times women don’t know or really understand what it is that intimacy fully entails, for example, I think that I think that as you as you dig deeper, as you look at that word, intimacy, it’s to be fully open and honest about who you are. And I think the barriers that you’re talking about the fact that we don’t think it’s acceptable to be who we are. And so we don’t bring our true selves, we bring what we think we need to be. And I think that stands in the way even have a good relationship. Even if you have someone who is listening, who is cherishing you, if you feel in your inner being as a woman, that you were not loved and accepted as you are, you were not going to open up to that intimacy, you’re not going to let someone see and Jeff and I’ve done work early in premarital counseling about this radical acceptance that we need to offer one another that allows us to relax and rest into, and I have three things that I encourage women to do when they feel that desire to please perform perfect to say, Hold on, bring your presence. So that is a huge barrier not externally to us as women, but internally, that we have been taught by culture, or sometimes even by our families, that we should be always pleasing, always perfecting always, you know, performing for someone and what if in the most intimate moments of our life, we simply just need to bring our presence what if that is healing, and that is enough. And when we rest into that these three R’s we rest into who God has made us to be, we receive that acceptance and love from our spouse, but also from God in ourselves that we choose to accept ourselves, we will then rise into all we are meant to be, and we will find something that is really profoundly important that is missing in our culture, we will find something the word is fulfilment. And it is a fruitfulness that we forget about. Because we see success as this external, tangible thing we want so much, I want my relation to be successful, I want my life to be successful. And we also need to incorporate this feminine fruitfulness that is about really opening ourselves up to seeing and being seen known and being known, loving and being loved.


Kimberly Hoffman  13:53

So I hear you saying bring our authentic self to the table and just be who we are with our spouse.


Jessica Jennings  14:02

Yes, and if we’re not feeling safe, that’s where we want to be very open with the other person. And if we’re not feeling safe to do that, maybe we need therapy or coaching, right, but to say, Hey, I’m not feeling safe here. I’m feeling like I’m holding back. I want you to know me. But I’m scared. That is a great jumping off point if you feel overwhelmed and don’t know where to start.


Matthew Hoffman  14:25

Sure. And I want to jump in because Jessica, you did a great point. And we’ll let Frank answer kind of that same question. But I think that my question for you is going to be is it the so if a woman doesn’t feel safe, she’s not going to be able or willing to bring her authentic self. So in other words, because if they’re not safe and they do it, they’re fearful of what may happen if it’s not received or ready to be received, right? So that’s a factor that lies within themselves, but it’s also how does a woman face that then and not be a victim, well, I would bring my full self, but he or is not going to receive it, therefore I’m not right. How can a woman be most authentic and show up and do everything that she can do? Because she can only control herself? Right? And that can’t control the other side of that equation, or it can influence it, certainly. So if, if a woman isn’t comfortable, they shouldn’t bring their true self. So I think you kind of had a question there by saying, Hey, I’m not feeling safe. And I feel like I’m holding back. I need XYZ 123, to be able to really be present with you. And then it puts it back on the partner, to give them that space where they can authentically show up.


Jessica Jennings  15:45

Absolutely. I think that that’s a wonderful observation. And I think it’s hard to do that. But when we assume the best about the relationship that helps to bring the anxiety down when we say things like, I know, we both want to deeply Connect. This is what would help me or this is where I find myself afraid. Would you hold me? Would you be specific, be very specific about what you need when there’s fear involved? Because sometimes we need physical tangible safety and security. Sometimes we need words of affirmation. And that’s okay. But to be able to speak those out, and to know that your presence is healing both men and women, when we’re truly fully willing to show up and show up.


Matthew Hoffman  16:33



Kimberly Hoffman  16:34

So Frank, why I would love to hear from you. Why are women not getting what they want?


Pastor Frank Legette  16:38

For me, the problem is real simple. And I obviously I’ve pastored for 40 years. So I come from, I come from a faith and spiritual background. Ephesians five is real, it’s real. It’s real simple, real clear. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her. So there were two things that Christ did for his wife, the church, that Paul says we ought to do for our wives. So we want to be the lovers and the givers. You never have to tell a woman to love her husband. We men need to hear that message. Women are going to do that automatically. But the problem is, most men come into relationships. And I’m a guy I know I’ve done it myself. We come into relationships, thinking we know how to love our women. And, and we come in loving them the way we know how to love them, the way we’ve loved our women in the past, the way we are comfortable with loving our women, but that is not necessarily loving them the way they want to be loved. And the problem is women are the lovers, the givers and the pleasers in the relationships. And so she’s doing she’s doing all the loving the giving, the pleasing and the sacrificing. And what she’s giving is not coming back to her in the amount that she is giving. And so after a while the average woman is going to get tired. How do I know I ruined a perfectly good marriage because I was upside down in my marriage. And my wife got tired because she thought she created a monster. Because I thought I thought that, you know, she said to me, I want to she literally got in my face and would say over and over again. I want to spoil you, I want to pamper you, I want to love you. I looked up to him and said oh my gosh, I have arrived. And I thought that she derived pleasure from giving pleasure. So the very least that I could do is just receive but she was giving. She got down the road and she got tired. She felt that she created a monster who was in Kargil and both incorrigible and that I was incapable of change. I love the ground this woman walked on, but she drew a line in the sand and said you’re never going to change. She walked away and she didn’t come back because we were upside down in the relationship. That happens in so many relationships. And women are fearful of saying anything to it because they’re fearful of disturbing our comfort zone. Women you cannot be fearful if you are hurting and in pain. You got to go to your husband. Yes, you’ve got to find the right way to say it, because your approach is everything. But if you’re not happy, you’ve got to find a way to express that you got to let him know what you need. Why you’re not happy what’s going on in this relationship. You can’t suffer in silence, because that will lead to separation and or divorce.


Matthew Hoffman  19:37

 Wow, beautifully said, you know, there’s so much goodness happening today. I love this conversation. Because I think we’re busting through so many misconceptions and wrong ideas for women, about women. And I think, you know, it’s easy, women have it harder. I’m going on the record right now, it is harder for a woman in a relationship than it is for a man because the women I think, have so much societal pressure expectations, as you were talking about earlier, Jessica, you said women are objectified so much more than men happens to men too. But nothing even close to what. So women have a much higher, steeper, harder hill to climb. And but the expectations are also higher. So if we have one of our listeners, this is the next question is sitting there going? Okay. I hear Yeah, sure. Sounds good. But where do I start? If I want to work on getting my best relationship? And Frank, I’m going to ask you to respond to this first, where should a woman start this process? Or what should she start with, on that journey?


Pastor Frank Legette  21:51

So the women who come to my coaching program, here’s where I start with them. And I walk them through a process. And I had them sit down, and I say to them, You are the one and only expert on planet earth that knows how you want to be loved. You don’t want to own the expert, your husband is not that expert. You are, you know how you want to be loved and treated and cherished and pampered and spoiled. So what do you want, you’ve got to identify that, that’s number one. And then you’ve got to share it in such a way. Now you can’t curse him out. And you can you can’t go off on him. Because you’re just going to drive him away, we are going to shut down. And I am the master of the shutdown. Your approach is everything. But you’ve got to, you’ve got to be able to share it in a way in an environment where he’s comfortable with having a dialogue, because as soon as the decibels go up, he’s going to shut down. So your approach is everything you have to share with him. What do you want? What do you need to be happy? And you got to have that dialogue, you first have to identify it, number one, and then number two, you need to share that with him in an environment that is conducive to having an open dialogue.


Matthew Hoffman  23:07

That’s perfect. Well said. Thank you, Jessica, how would you answer that same question? Where would you tell a woman’s like, you know, Jessica, I hear you. It sounds good to me. And I want to get there. But this is a this this is big and looming. And it scares the bejesus out of me. Right? Where should I start?


Jessica Jennings  23:22

Absolutely. I think it sounds counterintuitive, but I absolutely agree with Frank, I think that you start at the point of pain or fear that you identify where is this hurting me the most? Where am I feeling the most discomfort. And take it down just a little bit if you can, and just allow yourself to be present with it so that you know what that is just like Frank’s that you have to know what is it that’s most upsetting to me what’s bothering me the most. Now again, as we understand ourselves, we are going to be able to then communicate and articulate it from that place of understanding rather than judgment. So judgment and fear are aligned. And love and acceptance are going to be aligned. So as we move into caring for ourselves and saying it matters, what pains you it matters, what bothers you. And if you can’t believe that about yourself, hear me say it, what hurts you matters. And your spouse may not be able to communicate right now that that he cares. But trust me that there is that part that wants to be close to you that he does want to be close. He just doesn’t know how to get there. And when we then take our pain, understand it ourselves and then assume the best about our relationship. But this isn’t going to be easy, but it’s going to be so good. When I come as Frank said in a way that is easier to understand to say hey, I know we both longed to connect but I’m feeling so disconnected from you. When I don’t have you move towards me and planning a date or in pursuing me in a room antiquated, I start to feel like a roommate or friend or unimportant to you, and I end up, then fill in the blank, I end up looking for tension other places or end up shutting down myself, I end up just focusing on the kids, and then I forget that I need you. And so we want to focus on the point of pain. Because we want to see where it hurts us the most, we want to understand it. And then we want to be able to communicate it in a way that assumes the best about our relationship and our spouse. Because truly underneath all of it, we are desperately longing for connection. And when we bring ourselves like I talked about, you’re going to be able to find that bonding and that connection, we’re longing for that there’s a lot of hope in this as well. And a lot of people don’t try because they’ve hit a wall of hopelessness where they feel like I’ve communicated, I’ve not received any positive feedback, I’ve communicated it and not gotten any movement. But this is a very different way of communicating that has often a very different end.


Jessica Jennings  26:00

 I would love to talk,


Pastor Frank Legette  26:02

Hey, can I say this? 


Kimberly Hoffman  26:03

Yes, absolutely.


Pastor Frank Legette  26:05

When I when I when a cultural woman in my program, I share this one thing, and some of them initially have pushed back to the concept. And here’s what I shared with him. Because you are the one and only expert on the planet earth who knows how you want to be loved. You need to teach him how to love you. I shared that message with my daughter, her response was pop up, I got three kids, I don’t want four. I’m teaching three, I don’t want to teach number four. I said, Well, baby, look, look, he didn’t grow up with his dad, he doesn’t know how to. You need to teach him and you can, but you didn’t do it in a way that he didn’t realize he’s been taught because once he realizes he’s in your school of love, he’s good, he’s great, and he’s gonna drop out of school. So it needs to be done artfully.


Kimberly Hoffman  26:53

I love that. So give me an example of being artful.


Pastor Frank Legette  26:57

You can’t come off as the teacher, you must, you must say it in a way that you’re drawing him. And you’re you, you must you must appeal to his heart. Because if he loves you, and many husbands love their wives, if he loves you, he’s going to want to respond in kind, but you need to say it in a way that draws him and turns him on without thinking he’s in your classroom. And, and, and he’s a student, there’s this, this, just just just the whole approach to it, you’ve got to say it lovingly, you got to lower your voice, you can’t be screaming, you can’t be doing your neck, you know, back and forth, and he thinks he’s being lectured. You got to have a doc, this is a dialogue.


Jessica Jennings  27:45

So a couple of things. I want to piggyback off of that, when you’re saying you’re saying that beautiful encouragement to lower your voice. It is unbelievable how that sings a song to our inner brain, our primal fear brain is soothed by low tones. Scientifically, it is so helpful. The other elements of is speaking from a low tone, but also getting low. In other words, if you can, if you can get to your spouse’s level, if they’re sitting on the couch, sit down next to them. If Jeff and I are in an argument, I will often times sit on the ground while he is on the couch, I will look up at him and I will use a soft tone. The reason I do that is because scientifically I know I am positioning myself not as small, but as non threatening. And that’s different. I am not small, I am absolutely the most important person in his life. But to be non threatening is to tell his primal brain You are safe here. And then like you were talking about right to assume the best is to sing to their heart is to tell them I know how much you love me. You have to trust in that. But at this time, I’m not feeling connected to you. Because so that’s a great little way of assuming the best because there is a part of us. And maybe there’s a part of your heart right now and says, Well, I don’t know, if he loves me. Then we can say something else to say I know we both longing for connection, because that is true. And maybe we fallen out of the sense of rhythm and connection. So maybe you don’t feel those loving feelings. But I know that we want connection. I know we want to build this relationship and if you can’t say it about the other person you say it about yourself. I want to connect with you because what a difference rather than saying you don’t care about me, you don’t ever ask me out on a date versus what I call in my practice the positive opposite, which is to say, I long for us to have a fun night where we laugh and we dress up and we go out and we flirt with each other and we have great connection and conversation like oh I long for that. I miss you. I miss you. We’re so good together like what a different approach what a different way of springs at teaching our spouse like I need to be pursued. And then when he says, We’ll plan something, you know, put it on the calendar be like, No, it doesn’t have the same ring to it as when you text me something and you say, Hey, babe, let’s go out this weekend, I want to spend time with you, I need you to pursue me. So we’re teaching how like, how do you pursue me? No, don’t just put that on my list of to do’s because my list of to do’s for a woman usually is super duper long, and super duper hectic and little tiny things of going to the doctor and making the dinner and leather, the law. And all those things are hugely important, but often fall on the woman, the Sutton, not that that always should be let’s divide and conquer. But sometimes that happens, and so to say to your spouse, not only do I need a date, but it means so much to me, when you’re the initiator and you pursue me, and I’m the one who’s being pursued, that’s important to me. And so continue to communicate in those ways. And I think it will be so much more successful and helpful.


Kimberly Hoffman  31:00

I want to talk a little bit about the importance of self care, a woman’s self care and how that impacts your relationship. And what I mean by that is, how what is our physical, our spiritual, our mental fitness, right? And so Jessica, I’d love to start with you. Tell me how we can really adopt that self care and what benefits it has?


Jessica Jennings  31:30

Absolutely, I think Jeff and I even just have this conversation about physical exercise, and even just taking time out, that’s something that’s very hard for me because I tend to prioritize whatever’s right in front of me, you know, whatever’s going on. So it’s almost like the squeaky wheel gets the oil. In my work. I have a little bit of a distractibility, and I like to get things done that are right in front of me. And so to get my priorities straight, I need to do my workouts early in the morning, and I need to make it simple and short, like 20-30 minutes. And for me, it’s very, very important that Jeff also safeguards that time for me by offering to do other things. If I’m saying I have a really crazy hectic day, will you take my daughter’s so that I you know, or will you do this, and that’s going to free up some time for me to focus on myself, because when I’m doing that I’m so much more clear headed, I feel more energized, I feel it’s not about my parents, it’s about, it’s about my self care and about making certain that I’m well and then energized and fully able to be present. And then I’m also prioritizing my own physical being in my own body, which is something that a lot of women I feel, aren’t able to do, because there’s not sometimes that support and there’s not always that that priority placed on them. And that slides down the list and sometimes even way off the list.


Kimberly Hoffman  32:55

Sure. How about you, Frank, what would you have to add to that, and maybe focusing on the spiritual impact?


Pastor Frank Legette  33:05

Well, I would include more than just the spiritual. My concern for women, women, the average and typical woman and wife puts everybody in the family before herself. The husband comes before her, the kids come before her the dog comes before her the house comes before her. Everything and everybody. There are even women who have broken down and said, You know what, I’m going to the mall, I’m going to just do I’m going to buy me something today. And then they get it home and feel guilty. And take it back because it felt so selfish. My philosophy is you can’t How can you love somebody else and you don’t even love yourself first. And so women need to learn realize how valuable they are, or how important they are. And you and you need to take care of yourself. And I believe everything that Jessica said, You need to work out you need to look good because marriage is for a lifetime. It was destined to be for a lifetime. And so and so you don’t want to get halfway into the marriage and you’re no longer desirable to your husband, or he’s no longer desirable to you. Because you’re both way out of shape and and you nobody looks good. You don’t go to the dentist, you don’t do all those important things. All of those things are self care. That needs to be done. Go to the dentist, get your teeth fixed, go get your teeth clean, all those things, go to the barbershop go to the beauty salon. You need to look good for each other because you still need to be attractive to each other. And then on the mental on a mental level. Sometimes you got to go. You have issues that’s bigger than you and bigger than your spouse. Sometimes you got to go and talk to a professional, sometimes you got to go get a therapist, sometimes you got to go get a coach. And there’s nothing wrong with investing in you. And just to get a third opinion, whether it’s just you or your husband, or you and your husband, sometimes you got to go and receive that self care is vitally important. And we’re better off when we do.


Kimberly Hoffman  35:25

Yeah, I see that as enrichment, honestly, and how important it is that we enrich our marriage with information that we can learn and grow from?


Matthew Hoffman  35:25

Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that one of the fallacies we hear is that men are much more interested in intimacy than women. And, and it’s a fallacy because women are really interested in intimacy. They’re just not always interested in sex. And when you ask a man, what intimacy means most men, not all men will go sex, right? And that is a form of it. But there’s so much deeper things that go behind them before that to occur. So I’d love to hear from both of you, Jessica, maybe you’d start is, what is, what is the role, the best role for intimacy in a relationship? And what can a woman do to make it work best for her so she is satisfied and fulfilled and getting what she needs?


Jessica Jennings  36:26

Absolutely, I definitely think that that sense of connection and intimacy is going to start with just that, that openness, like we talked about that sense of safety. And so if you’re open and feeling a greater sense of safety, because you’re able to communicate about what you need, you’re getting more of your needs met. That is going to lead to a greater sense of knowing one another. And I think sometimes in our culture, we are we are focused on that, just that attraction, I believe that attraction is necessary to come together. And there’s a need for attraction. But there’s also this other deeper element that happens when we’re open and willing to be intimate with one another bits of bonding. And whether it be emotional intimacy, or physical intimacy, we’re actually releasing a chemical called oxytocin. In our bodies, when we are feeling safe, and we are, we are emotionally and physically intimate or sexually intimate with one another, that draws us back together, we feel more vulnerable. And I need women to know this that, that for women, oftentimes, we’re going to need emotional psychological intimacy or connection with our spouse in order to want sexual intimacy. And for men, it’s not wrong, it’s not bad, it’s just different. They are going to want physical or sexual intimacy before they open up. That’s why you have that that little, quote, pillow talk that what is that it’s actually the men who were more able to open up in intimacy, emotionally after sex has happened. And so it’s exciting to think about it this way. That is, we are open, of course, it is about total authentic desire on both parts. But to remember that both of you can open up to these other levels that maybe aren’t quite as immediately natural for you like for men, maybe it’s like, it’s not natural for me to talk about my feelings. But as you talk about them, as you open up, you’re opening up the gate for even more physical intimacy. And for women to say, Oh, I don’t always feel comfortable, I don’t always feel like I’m in the mood. But as you open yourself up to that, to that exploration of one another physically, that also leads to more emotional intimacy. So if we’re both willing to just explore some of these other avenues of intimacy, it will allow us to feel a greater wholeness. Now, of course, I’m all always for absolute consent on both parts. At the same time, an openness really helps with that. And openness helps facilitate greater intimacy. Because Jeff and I get in our worst fights when we haven’t had sex. You know, it’s like, oh, my gosh, we, you know, we need to be intimate. We haven’t even thought about because we’re so busy. And we oftentimes get the fight because we need each other and we realize, Oh, that was our way of cueing each other. I don’t like that cue. I don’t like to fight or argue. But sometimes it’s like, oh, yeah, and we tend to do that. So let’s be intentional about emotional intimacy that leads to physical intimacy, but also y’all let’s also be intentional about physical intimacy, that leads to emotional intimacy. It’s both ways. And don’t forget to play because playfulness is also a huge aphrodisiac like we forget to go to that place of play with one another. It builds that sense of intimacy to play. So look at all these creative beautiful ways of finding your spouse and connecting with your spouse and, and if you’re hesitant to do one of them, go to counseling, explore what that is because you may be closing off to something really beautiful in your relationship.


Matthew Hoffman  40:00

That’s great. You give us a lot of great angles to think about Jessica. And so frank coming back, what would you say? You know, how does a woman make intimacy, the best it can be for her? What would you add to what Jessica shared with us? 


Pastor Frank Legette  41:24

I share with couples in particular and people in general. That and I’m sure I’m sure many of you know this reference. Dr. Willard F. Harley wrote a book. excellent book. I recommend it to everybody his needs her needs to interview 1500 couples to ascertain their most important needs. They know number one need of men in that interview. Not surprisingly, was sex. Right? Number one. And so when I asked him when I asked my audience, what number do you think sex came in for the women in that interview? It was number 13. Which means there were 12 things more important to her than sex. That needs to happen before they can be an intimate connection. My wife taught me my wife taught me my wife, my wife passed away from COVID two years ago. And so simple but but she was an incredible woman. And here’s what she taught me. I’d climb in bed at night and I’m ready to play. And girlfriend would say to me you can’t ignore me all day long and then expect me to get in bed and perform miracles at night. Oh, girlfriend said. And here’s the key word that women need to understand. Foreplay begins in the morning. I started washing dishes. I started because I did not like that. Women have to have that emotional connection. So there can be the spiritual the I mean, I mean, the sexual intimacy that you a woman can’t disconnect the two. We can we can hop in a bed with a perfect stranger. And it happens all the time. One night you know when nightstands they call them something else today. Young people call it something else today. But we can happen a bit with a perfect stranger. Typically women that’s not how women operate. They need to connect with their men on an emotional level so that they can be free on an intimate level.


Matthew Hoffman  43:50

Sure. Frank, I think you just came up with your second book title is called for play starts in the morning. Okay. That’s a great title.


Pastor Frank Legette  44:02

You know what, you know what Matthew? You just might be right.


Matthew Hoffman  44:09

I’ll co-author it with you let me know, I’ll be a contributor. Let me know. I love that thought. And you are so right. That is just great wisdom and experience. And I love hearing what both he had to say on that. 


Kimberly Hoffman  44:24

Yeah and what about Jessica appreciation and validation? How does that play a role into this intimacy piece?


Jessica Jennings  44:32

 Absolutely. Gratitude is such a huge part. It is so interesting that when couples are asked about this aspect of their relationship, if they’re not being appreciated, there’s a huge bitterness and resentment that starts to rise up. Because all of us need to be seen as valuable and when we’re not valued and we’re not appreciated when there’s not gratitude for, for what the other person is doing and for who the other person is for how they bring that light, that sense of connection into your life when you’re not recognizing it. It brings a whole lot of resentment. So be very intentional because it’s easy to let that slide, it’s easy to let that go unnoticed when that person walks the dog or makes dinner or takes out the trash or pays the bills, all those things are so monotonous and so oftentimes thankless. We don’t want to let them be in our relationships, we will benefit one another and we will help the other person be built up in and the relationship when we acknowledge in gratitude.


Matthew Hoffman  45:44



Kimberly Hoffman  45:46

Yeah, knowing and feeling that your treasure just makes your heart sing. And there’s no better feeling, in my opinion.


Jessica Jennings  45:54

Absolutely. I love that, it’s a great way to say it. it’s so true.


Kimberly Hoffman  45:59

How about how about for you, Frank, what would you add to that?


Pastor Frank Legette  46:04

I’m referring back to Dr. Holly’s book. One of the top five needs of the man was just having his wife and the woman in his life, appreciate him and express that appreciation. We will we will climb any mountain we will climb to the deepest, steepest mountain will swim, the deepest ocean will jump the highest hurdles and overcome the most incredible obstacles. When we feel that you value us as as as men and husbands in your life, it it does, we will go through a brick wall for you, when we know how much you love and value and appreciate it. It is a game changer in the relationship.


Matthew Hoffman  47:00

I love that. I want to share something with you all there’s an article by a doctor Audrey from And she there are four emotional requirements a woman needs from her man. And I’m gonna let you know what she said. She says the four things she needs is his love, his leadership, his support, and a sense of safety. So my question coming right back to you guys, the two of you is What can a woman do to get those four things consistently? In her relationship? What can she do to get his love? The leadership, the support and the sense of safety? What is it that a woman should be doing? That’s going to bring those things right back to her and fill her up? What would you say to that, Jessica?


Jessica Jennings  47:48

Well, I think there’s there’s so many ways, there’s so many avenues. But as we talked about earlier, just bringing your authentic self, and then making the request for what you need the most, because so many men are going to have some of those things, and they may struggle in other areas. So I’d say definitely communicate respect through acceptance of who you have married, who you’re with, to radically accept that. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. And sometimes we actually are with someone. And their strengths are very different than ours. But there’s also a beautiful compliment that goes with that. And so we want to accept and appreciate like we talked about, but then also be able to communicate clearly, the aspect that matters the most to us and clearly communicate what we need, as we believe we are worthy of that. To ask for it is really is really a simple thing. It’s when we aren’t certain that we’re worthy of it, or we’re very hurt and feeling unworthy of something that oftentimes it becomes a greater barrier. And so if there’s one of those things are not consistently getting, if you’re not consistently getting one of those aspects from your spouse, to be able to know that you are worthy of it, and to talk about it humbly with a sense, again, of assuming the best about your spouse or accepting your spouse, and also asking for what you need. It’s going to really set an amazing tone for the requests that you’re making. And then asking, How can I support you in in this process of growth, because we’re all in this together and we’re all imperfect? We’re all growing and if we can recognize that and not be a judge, but be someone walking with and encouraging and supporting and also observing, it will go much better.


Matthew Hoffman  49:38

Sure. Frank, what would you add to that? What can women do to get those things from their man and get them to show up for what they need them to be?


Pastor Frank Legette  49:50

I believe just I teach this and I have experienced this that a wife is a game changer in a man’s life. I personally believe that beside every good man is an incredible woman, I believe with all my heart and soul. However, she cannot allow him to live down to what God has called him to. I believe that she God has gifted every woman on this planet with the specific gifts that she needs to be able to hold her man to a higher standard to take him higher. Now there’s an art in doing that. She’s needs to say it the right way. And Jessica sent it in. And I love what you said, positioning yourself so that you’re not demeaning yourself. But but but you’re not threatening his manhood because I manhood is very fragile. I don’t care how many muscles he’s got, Matt. manhood is real fragile. And so. So when when you see when a man sees that his wife loves him, and supports him and motivating and inspiring him to be better than he is. That goes a long way, I will tell you that I am the man that I am because of my wife, she changed my life. Because she held me to a higher standard, because I was a mess when I married her. And she held up the standard and required me to meet that standard. I do what I do today, even though she’s not here, I do and I do I am who I am, because she motivated and inspired me to be better than I am. My love for her will be eternal forever. Because of the impact she’s had on my life.


Matthew Hoffman  51:40

That’s beautiful. 


Kimberly Hoffman  51:41

So challenging your spouse, basically to be a better version of themselves, is what I hear you telling our listeners and how important that is for a man.


Pastor Frank Legette  51:55

Absolutely. A woman can come into a an under achieving man’s life. And when she’s done with him, when she’s mastered the art of womanhood, he can soar into the stratosphere. Because when you say it, we believe it. When you say I can do it, I’m gonna get it done. When you say I can go through that brick wall, I don’t know what’s going to happen when I get to the brick wall. I don’t know if he’s gonna pop this way or that way, or it’s going to disintegrate. All I know is I’m going through the brick wall, because you believe in me.


Matthew Hoffman  52:31

Yeah, that’s huge, you know, I think and around the idea of partnership is that you have to kind of be a woman needs to know that she needs to be what she expects her partner to do for her. It’s kind of like you’re calling them out. And you’re you’re you’re you’re inviting them to lean into and step into the best version of who they are, who they’ve been called to be, as you both have said, and we agree we all have that calling. And you are setting their expectation in the aim high. And then giving the man the opportunity, the other person in that relationship, the partner to step into what their greatness is supposed to be. And when a woman does that for a man, or anybody, any partner does that for the person, they’re dedicated, they’ve committed their life to how can you not help but soar and feel that support and because it’s mirroring your desire, and you’re giving them you’re you’re being a servant leader, because you’re saying, Hey, see what I’m doing for you. You can do this for me too, because women want and need, they had the same need. They’re not that different in that sense. They want to be held to the highest standard. They want to be told, I believe in you, you can do it, you’re capable. I’m going to support you and let’s go. Because that gives the woman the wings the same way. And if she models at first for the man, then you’re you’re you’re you’re creating the pattern, and it’s easy for a man to walk in and go, Man, you’ve done it for me. I know I can do this for you too. And I love that and golly.


Kimberly Hoffman  54:07

This has been amazing. You both are incredible. I guess my only final question might be and I’ll start with you, Jessica. Is there anything that we haven’t asked you that you just have a burning desire to tell our listeners?


Jessica Jennings  54:24

I want every woman out there to know that that she is unique, that she is like none other. And that as a woman? Sometimes the reason we felt like we cannot be loved is because we are not comparable to other people better than them. And that comparison will kill our joy as women. And so I would encourage women do not compare yourself recognize just like the seed like a apple seed is perfect and has everything It needs to become what it was intended to be that you are in that way perfect, that you have everything in you to grow into who you were intended to be Now, are we at our fulfillment yet? No, none of us are. And that’s okay. But you are exactly who you need to be. And you have what you need to be to become who you are going to be. And this is beautiful that You’re irreplaceable. That is you see yourself and your family at work. Don’t let anyone tell you that you can be replaced, because you can’t and a bond you’re forming with the people you love the most are irreplaceable bonds. And so take that very seriously show up fully for you know, first and foremost yourself and self care and then show up with others knowing that your presence is healing and that your uniqueness is beyond compare.


Kimberly Hoffman  55:56

That was incredible. It made me just get goosebumps because we all do have something very unique to bring to the table. And we should never ever discount that. We should know that. How about Frank, what would you say to tag on to that?


Pastor Frank Legette  56:18

I would say that. Unfortunately, in my experience, my coaching experience, I’ve identified 30 mistakes that women routinely make in their relationships inadvertently. Now not all women, not all women make all 30 But all women make every woman I’ve ever coached makes the first six or seven. One of the most egregious is is because women are so selfless. The lovers, the givers, the pleases the sacrifices, and the doing all the loving and an end, all this love is going out and very little was coming back. It’s okay for you to be loved the way you want to be loved. That’s not selfish. That’s self preservation. And so many women have issues with that when I share that with him. In fact, I have put it in the title of my book, my book is entitled The Art of womanhood. The subtitle is my message to women, teaching your man to love you the way you want to be loved. without him knowing he’s being taught, it’s okay for you to be loved on your terms and not on his. Because if he when we love you the way you want to be loved, we get it right every single time. But if we love you the way we want to love you, if we love you the way we are accustomed to loving you, or the only way we know how to love you. It’s a crap shoot, we may get it right most times you’re going to get it wrong. And so if we if we love you the way you want to be loved, we get it right every single time. But if we love you the only way we know how to it’s going to be a crapshoot. And most likely, we’re not going to get it right. And so the woman is going to end up unhappy, I’m gonna close with this. Here’s my experience. Most women teach their men how not to love them. Now that’s an oxymoron. That is absolutely counterintuitive, because we women do that because your sole focus on loving Him and not requiring it back in return. So if you don’t get it back in return, I don’t care how awesome your dating process was. If you’re if love and appreciation and value and work is coming back to you in a triple after a while you’re going to get tired and problems are going to ensue. And then your relationship is going to be in jeopardy. It doesn’t have to be we need to give to you the way you’re giving to us. It’s okay for you to be loved the way you want to be loved. That’s not selfishness. That’s self preservation. 


Matthew Hoffman  58:56

Love it. Well, gosh, we can keep this going on.


Kimberly Hoffman  58:59

I know.


Matthew Hoffman  58:59

And I know you all have more things to do. But we are so grateful for your presence and what you have shared and it is truth. And I’m hoping if you’re a woman out there, and you’re in a relationship that you want to be in a relationship that you take these things to heart because you are priceless. You are treasured, you are valued and you’re capable. But most of all you are deserving and we want every woman to feel that in a relationship. Jessica if people want to learn more about you connect with you. Call you. Work with you. Where should they go?


Jessica Jennings  59:33

They can visit “”. Look us up.


Matthew Hoffman  59:38 And you will see Jessica and her incredible husband, Jeff who we love also. Frank, how do people connect with you? Where can they get your book? How can they work with you if they want to do that?


Pastor Frank Legette  59:51

All of that information is on my website “” everything is there.


Matthew Hoffman  59:59 will again, we hope you will reach out to them. We hope if you’re listening to this that you’re going to share it with other women. Because these are all great things you need to know. Thank you for joining us today we are most grateful it’s been incredible. This will undoubtedly help a lot of people. And we’re gonna be talking and sharing about a lot of the things we discussed for quite some time. So there’s only one thing we want you and our listeners to remember,


Kimberly Hoffman  1:00:27

Happily ever after doesn’t just happen. It’s on purpose. 


Matthew Hoffman  1:00:31

Thank you both.