Relationship Nirvana: Getting the Love You Want, Episode 53

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We live in a crock pot world but we all want microwave results. Everyone is looking for that silver bullet. That single pill that when taken will quickly resolve our issues and put us in that place where we’d ideally like to be. If only it was that easy to create something wonderful not only takes time, but consistent, dedicated and sustained effort to key behaviors, tactics and activities. Once the goal is achieved and the summit reached, we cannot afford to rest and stop. But instead, recognize and celebrate our progress look ahead to the next summit we need to overcome and start the journey once again. To achieve relationship Nirvana, we can learn to create the system, the habitual habits and actions that will help us repeatedly achieve those desired results. As we continue to hone and apply our key relationship skills. Let’s take a look at our 14 pillars of successful relationships and use them as a lens to look through as we explore creating the system that will help us ultimately achieve our own relationship nirvana. We have a great RECAP episode today for the Kickass Couples Podcast. Kim and I had the honor of doing a panel with three licensed marriage therapists. A few names you might recognize if you’ve been hanging around the Kickass Couples Podcast for a while. My co-author on “Kickass Husband: Winning At Life, Marriage and Sex.” We had Chris Cambas on with us. We also had Jeff Jennings. He and his wife Jessica are from The Greatest Marriage Ever Program www.GreatestMarriageEver.com. They are both licensed marriage therapists, have independent practices and they work together for online coaching. And then we had Natalie Southward from the Life Transformation Counseling Center in Tampa, Florida. And she and her partner Eric, her wonderful husband were also guests on our podcast. So we had over Kim, 75 years of experience helping couples strengthen their relationships, and our whole quest and the purpose of this podcast interview that we did was titled “Relationship Nirvana.” Because we all would love to know what we can do to have a better relationship and reach that place where we feel like our relationship is in its nirvana or ideal state. And I think that Kim and I learned that it’s not a silver bullet. It’s not a plateau or a summit that we reach and we’re done. And we kick back and put our feet on the desk and eat bonbons for the rest of our life. But we keep facing those summits, but we have the tools and the systems in order to keep making it better and stronger and more durable for all the things that we’re going to face.

Kimberly Hoffman 04:07

I really love this episode, because I feel like it gave us so much incredible information from such legitimate sources, people who have been giving couples therapy for a long time, and they’re very good at what they do. And so I feel like it was just a great opportunity for us to really dissect and learn and pick their brains about a lot of these questions that we have surrounding Relationship Nirvana. And really I think at the end of the day, what we learned is it’s a journey. It really is just a constant. Like you said, we, you know, we’re rising up, we get to the top of the summit and we just keep doing that summit after summit after Summit. And it’s how we learn how to manage our relationship during all the ups and downs, that really helped us to achieve Relationship Nirvana.

Matthew Hoffman 05:08

Yeah, I mean, relationships are not linear, it’s not point A to point B, there’s no straight line, that’s the shortest distance. And we’d love to be able to do things that are expedient and quick and get through it. But when you have emotions, and different opinions and personalities, it really never seems to work out that way. And it’s, like Kim said is that ebb and flow, the line is gonna look ups and downs and peaks and valleys. And that’s just really how life is. But if you’re able to create the system, have tools in the toolbox, and the practices that you know, are going to give you the great results, it’s so much easier to know what to do when you’re faced with those situations. And we kind of started off this interview in the normal way we do on the Kickass Couples Podcast. And we went back to family of origin. And, you know, Natalie came right out of the gate. And she said, one of the things she does with her clients is a genogram. Because she wants them to connect with their history and understand who entered their world. And what was it for was it for attention, was it for love, was it for discipline? And she talked a lot about accessing the families and looking at the patterns of what was displayed, and then talking about roles and responsibilities and seeing how that all came forward in the relationship that they have today. So I think really Kim, it’s a lot about awareness, like, where did you come from? And what happened? And why is that important to you, as you go forward?

Kimberly Hoffman 06:34

Sure. It’s not just about the connecting, it’s about the disconnecting, too, right? So we’re learning about both sides of that history in what was modeled for us when we were when we were younger. And it does really do play a really big role in what we bring to our next relationships. So really digging in and learning and finding out about each other’s history. And educating ourselves is huge.

Matthew Hoffman 07:01

Yeah, Jeff talked about Kim, attachment style, maybe you can share a little bit, what can you share with us about attachment style. And why that’s important relative to the idea of our family of origin,

Kimberly Hoffman 07:11

While we’re growing up, we all have needs that need to be met, right? Especially when we’re younger. And it’s really how were those needs met, when we were younger, versus needs that weren’t being met, when we were younger. And so I feel like, you know, those are different styles that we learn when we’re younger. And those really do influence our relationship and how we attach to our partner.

Matthew Hoffman 07:40

Sure. And I think what he said too, is, you know, we learned or things were modeled to us that were healthy, and some were unhealthy. And so if you’re not aware of what unhealthy attachment is, maybe it’s something you’re continuing to do with your partner. And if you’re not attaching in a healthy way, that’s something you got to stop. So you got to be aware of it. And he said, You know, it’s more important to be aware if there’s any unhealthy attachments that are occurring. And then he helps and works with a couples to navigate those so they can be eliminated.

Kimberly Hoffman 08:08

Sure. And then Chris talked about something really important, which is our meta emotions. And that’s how we feel about our feelings, right, about how we connect to our own feelings. And that was another important factor in our history.

Matthew Hoffman 08:27

Yeah, I mean, he talked about having to regulate ease, he talked about up regulating positivity, meaning increase the way we have positivity, but he said, you can’t just downgrade negativity, it’s not about avoiding negativity, only. You do want to dampen those things that are negative in the relationship when you’re talking about emotions in your relationship, but you have to also upregulate positivity. So you’re going to dampen the negative stuff. And you have to learn how to talk about and make more things positive in your relationship with your spouse. I thought that was great.

Kimberly Hoffman 09:02

Sure, yeah. And I think that, you know, when there’s a when there’s a mismatch of feelings and emotions, and that meta emotion that that can really take you down a very dangerous path. If you’re not aware of it. And you don’t do something about it.

Matthew Hoffman 09:17

No doubt. And I think he talked about too, before you get married, if you can, you got to find out what those emotions styles are, and say, am I accepted? Can I accept this? Is it good for me? Is it gonna work? Or is it a non-starter? Because if you jump in a relationship, and you don’t understand how your personalities and those meta emotions and feelings are expressed or relating to your partner, you can really have a dangerous recipe down the road. If it’s something that’s not addressed.

Kimberly Hoffman 09:34

Yeah, I mean, you really have to know where they come from to be empathetic. And the next, the next thing that we moved into was commitment. And you know, what, what, what is commitment and what does it look like? And, you know, you’re really I think Jeff said, looking out for the well-being and the best interest of your partner.

Matthew Hoffman 10:08

Yeah. Yeah, I liked how he said that. You know, whose needs are first? I can ask him the question. I go, “Okay, if we’re looking out for our spouse’s needs first, and he said, “You gotta be flexible, because there’s going to be an ebb and a flow, right?” And the relationship different days, like between you and I, some days you are more needy or need more of my support. And other days, I might need more of yours. But kind of the underlying reality is we both need each other’s support all the time, right? There’s not really a time in a relationship where it’s like, “Oh, you don’t have to support me right now.”

Kimberly Hoffman 10:39

Right. And I think it’s about being aware to really sensing what the other person is signaling to you. Maybe it might be their words and actions, but you’re just really aware of what’s going on with them so that you really can jump in and offer that support, and give them what they need in that moment.

Matthew Hoffman 11:00

Yeah, awareness is huge. I agree. And I think we had the pleasure of interviewing another couple recently. And she said, never thought about awareness, relative to my partner in the relationship, you know, and she said, That’s a great word to go forward. And it was interesting, because Natalie talked about commitment, Kim, and she kind of had a three step process. She said, You know, before you commit, you want to know or ask yourself the question, “Can I rely on them?” “Are they going to be there for me?” So she goes, “you want to know them before you trust.” So you can’t just trust somebody because you say, “I love them, I care for him.” So I can just automatically trust she goes, “You got to know them and really understand who they are.” And the first step is that trust. And then she said, the second is she goes before you can trust, you got to know “can I rely on them? ” Are they going to be there for me in the way I need it when I need them? That’s step two. And she said three you can commit when you know them, and you’ve gotten the trust, and you can rely on them. And commitments easy because you don’t feel like you’re putting yourself out there, or you’re at risk in the relationships or,

Kimberly Hoffman 12:01

She you also said that when all those things come into play, when I can rely on you when I know I can trust you, then the physical and the sexual intimacy come naturally after that commitment is solidified.

Matthew Hoffman 12:18
Yeah, it’s a byproduct. It’s not is you can’t you can’t detour or circumvent that.

Kimberly Hoffman 12:22 It just happens.

Matthew Hoffman 12:23
Yeah, I like that. And then Chris talked a little bit about Kim, conditional commitment. He said, you know, variable commitment is the death knell of a relationship. And that’s when somebody

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you know, variable commitment is the death knell of a relationship. And that’s when somebody is committed sometimes, and sometimes they’re not. Or they’re not sure, maybe how they feel about the relationship. And their feelings and emotions and dedication are not consistent. They’re variable, because there’s conditional commitment, then they feel like there’s a plan B, like there’s, well, if this doesn’t work out, I can go do something else.

Kimberly Hoffman 12:54

Yeah. And he talked about, “can I trust you to be there for me?” “can I trust relying on you and said, It’s not about all the big things that we do for each other, but rather, all the little things like if I text you, you’re gonna respond. You know, if I, if I need something, you’re gonna, you’re gonna, you know, ask me, what is it that you need in that moment, you’re gonna respond to my needs, and vice versa. It works both ways. So, you know, if I ask you a question, you’re gonna answer it. If I’m making a bid for connection, you’re gonna look at me and respond to me and talk to me. It’s all those little things that add up.

Matthew Hoffman 13:36

Yeah, the little things that I trust is built like a like a brick in a wall, right? Every action is a brick, and the more bricks you put in the wall, the bigger it gets, the stronger it gets. And we have so many opportunities for connection, those bids, those sliding door moments that we’ve talked about before throughout a day. But it’s an act of choice, each and every one. If you choose to walk through it,

Kimberly Hoffman 13:57
I can look down and pretend like I don’t hear you, and I’m ignoring you or I can choose to look

you in the eye and acknowledge you and be there for you.

Matthew Hoffman 14:07
Yeah, the next thing we talked about Kim was communication. What were some of the things

that came to you, when we were talking with our great panel on communication?

Kimberly Hoffman 14:16

Well, one of the things that was said was that there are really two subjective realities that are happening all at one time when we communicate. Right? So it’s my version and your version. And it doesn’t mean that my version is right and yours is wrong, or vice versa. What we really need to do is when we’re communicating with each other is really try to understand what the other person is saying whether we agree with it or not. Just really try to listen, to actively listen, and to understand. I know

Matthew Hoffman 14:51

I know. You nailed it and I think that what I love that Chris shared as well. You said, I don’t have to agree with their emotions or their feelings on a situation and it doesn’t invalidate you or you don’t have to sacrifice your belief or your thought. But you do have to understand it, because by understanding it, you’re drawn closer to them. And you’re becoming more unified. As you say, well, we’re gonna agree to disagree about that. And understanding. And I mean, in our own experience, Kim, there’s been things. You and I are both of the Christian faith, but there’s some finer points on theology or biblical interpretation, right. So we haven’t agreed on and we learned early on to go, “okay, I respect and understand where you’re coming from.” But it’s not about convincing the other one, that one’s right and one’s wrong. It’s understanding where we differ and saying, Hey, we differ on that, and how can we move forward?

Kimberly Hoffman 15:39

And that’s where we messed up at the beginning. I mean, if we’re being really honest about it, you know, we would kind of go head to head and really try to make the other person sort of sway them right to understand know your way isn’t right and my way is. And after time, we realize that it’s just more important that we really respect that we each have our own opinion and our own, you know, value system and belief system. And, and we respect what that is,

Matthew Hoffman 16:09

Right. I think we’ve learned in our journey together, how to be more empathic with each other, like the universe does not just exist because of me, right, or you and that’s not why we’re here. We’re here to serve and support. And I think that’s been been huge for us.

Kimberly Hoffman 16:24

Another thing is just prioritizing time to communicate whether it’s over a meal, or whether it’s at the end of every day, we’re going to have 10 minutes, maybe we’re going to take a walk or we’re going to do a paddleboard. We have to carve out the time to have great effective communication with each other. It’s imperative

Matthew Hoffman 16:44

It is. When it comes to creating a Kickass marriage, do you ever wonder what you could be doing better? Have you ever thought how helpful it would be to be a part of a like-minded community of other imperfect couples who want to level up their number one relationship? Come visit Kickass Couples Nation, where you can talk with people just like you who are looking for ways to invest in and increase their joy, commitment and fulfillment and their most important human relationship. You’ll have access to a team of licensed marriage therapists, coaches, articles, podcasts, live webinars and more. Just visit www.matthewphoffman.com so you can learn more about a community that’s ready to help you level up. That’s www.matthewphoffman.com so you can become part of the growing Kickass Couples Nation right now. And I think a lot of it comes down to motive too, Kim. One of the things that Natalie said, she said, “Are you listening to hear? Or are you listening to share?” So many of us when we’re in conversations, and I’m sure a lot of our listeners have seen this, you’re talking to somebody, and they just can’t wait to start talking, they keep trying to interrupt you, they want to jump in, they want to finish your sentences, because they want to get out what they’re thinking and what they want to say what they want you to hear. But you really got to be patient with your partner, and make sure you’re listening for their heart. Where’s their heart on this issue? And if you understand it, then you can also share your viewpoint but not till you’ve been empathic and related to your partner, what they’re feeling and then reflect back to you. “Yeah, that’s it, you got it.”

Kimberly Hoffman 18:18

What about conflict resolution, Matthew, that is one of the things one of the areas that we talked about in our podcast. And I feel like the masters that when they come to resolving conflict, they do it really well, because they kind of hit it right head on when it arises. But they also use it as an opportunity for growth and to learn more about their partner. Tell me a little bit about what you learned about conflict resolution and talking to these three therapists.

Matthew Hoffman 18:55

Sure, I think one of the big things that came up to me Kim is you know, you and I have said this before, like if it’s a Chris talks about perpetual issues, and a couple that he had that was there in their 80s. And they had been married over 43 years. And he said, there were issues, perpetual issues that they each had, that they didn’t know the other one had. And so they kept butting against one another, and, you know, locking horns, so to speak. And I think it’s understanding if an issue is perpetual meaning no matter what I’m gonna feel one way and you’re gonna feel another It’s unsolvable. Right? Not solvable. So it’s not really, it’s not about you want to solve what you can, and I think the situation will naturally present itself if you can, but if you can’t, it’s getting understanding. Right? And understanding why do you feel that way? What’s the dream within the reality? Why is this so important to you? And then once you understand that, you’re seeing eye to eye or you’re hip to hip, so you’re both looking at the situation the same way. You’ve achieved understanding and you can move forward knowing that you have differences of opinion.

Kimberly Hoffman 20:01

I think instead of yelling and getting heated and getting angry and maybe accusatory, I think we have to really learn how to establish some really healthy dialogue, we have to learn to simmer down, listen, and really talk about how we feel. “This really hurt me when you said, XYZ” or “I feel this when you say that.” So really, establishing healthy dialogue around the conflict, and using it as an opportunity to learn is huge.

Matthew Hoffman 20:37

Yeah, softening the reaction, I think is huge. And sometimes that’s just time, you know, PBR, method, pause, breathe and reflect. So if you’re triggered by something, or you feel like you have a negative emotion about something your spouse does, or says, pause, right, take it in, breathe, take a big breath, reflect, and then respond. And we interviewed a sweet couple, George and Nancy Hensley. And she goes, you know, what we’ve learned after 62 years of being together, she says, “You got to calm, you got to cool off before you spout off.” Right. And you know, that’s a funny way of remembering it. But she’s so right, you got to take it in, because you never want to do something intentionally or unintentionally that’s going to hurt your spouse, because if they’re your best friend and your partner, you would never want to knowingly or unknowingly do something that’s damaging to them, because it’s going to hurt the relationship.

Kimberly Hoffman 20:38

Sure. We talked a little bit earlier today, too, we just finished an interview with a young couple that were great. And you know, you talked about H.A.L.T. And you know, we kind of got to like look at ourselves and see where we are. Are we hungry? Are we tired? What No. Did we just come off of a really bad phone conference? So many things can come into play when we’re trying to have dialogue or resolve conflict with our partner.

Matthew Hoffman 22:01

So there’s an acronym that Kim is talking about, it’s called HALT. H A L T And those letters stand for the H is for hungry. The A is for angry. The L is for lonely, if you’re feeling isolated, and the T is if you’re tired. So if you’re experiencing any of those emotions, you have to know enough to address the emotion first make it a non-issue. Because if you bring that baggage into the relationship with your partner, you’re going to be focusing on that issue that emotion and not necessarily what’s between you. So it’s a good, you’re hungry, Angry, Lonely or Tired? Get those needs met first so you can be most effective as you talk to your partner.

Kimberly Hoffman 22:40

Yeah. So real quick, I mean, there was just so much good information throughout this entire episode and interviewing these therapists. They’re just wonderful people, and they have so much great information to impart to us. But if we had to just sum it up really quick, Matthew into just seven, maybe just different things that we can give our listeners to put into their toolbox to help really achieve Relationship Nirvana, what would some of those things be?

Matthew Hoffman 23:09

Great question Kim. I mean, we could have done and we could do a RECAP with you on this episode for over an hour or more. Because there’s so much truth and great nuggets here. I think the first thing that Jeff shared, is he said you, you know, we live in an overscheduled world, there are so many demands on our time, and our focus and our energy and our effort. He said you have to make intentional time to be together, you got to carve it out. And make sure that you’re connecting, not talking about the schedule, and what are we having for dinner and what are we doing Friday night?

Kimberly Hoffman 23:40 You’re talking about date night

Matthew Hoffman 23:42

Yeah, I call it the weather and the weather report. It’s not like” oh, how are you feeling?” Fine, you know, “nice weather out today, right?” You know, meaningless conversation is not connection connection, is looking into the eyes, being in close proximity, touching, if you can, and asking those questions about where your spouse is emotionally, on any issue, and sharing progress about where you are as well asking those deeper level questions and really trying to get to know and understand your partner better. Yeah, what was another one that you um, I think just really looking for the good in your partner and speaking it when you see it when you notice something that they’re doing, just recognize it and say it and just show so much appreciation? It goes so far and making your spouse feels so good. Yeah, we all love to hear the good things about us and what our partner appreciates, I think, finding and asking the right questions, Kim. I mean, just because we’ve been married 27 years coming up on 28 there’s still stuff I don’t know about her. So the challenge to me is to find questions I can ask about. It could be a specific issue we’re dealing with, a family member or children, us together, but finding the right questions and asking so I can learn more about your inner world and what beliefs you hold close to yourself, and taking the time to get those things, journal them, and track them and really become a student. You can never stop being a student of your spouse.

Kimberly Hoffman 25:08
And I love what Natalie always says “continue to be curious.” Always be curious in your relationship, which is wonderful advice. Yeah,

Matthew Hoffman 25:17 No doubt.

Kimberly Hoffman 25:18

I think, you know, she also said “play together, you have got to make time to have fun together.” And I agree. I mean, if we’re doing if you’re off playing golf, or you’re playing tennis, and you’re doing something with your friends, and your wife is maybe doing something with her friends, and it’s totally no separate, you have to come together and play together, you it cannot always be “You do your thing. And I’ll do mine.” We’ve got to have fun together.

Matthew Hoffman 25:46

Yeah. what’s interesting is playing and having fun, it can be one of your favorite activities, I could take Kim on one of my favorite activity, she could take me on one of hers. But I would encourage you all to find activities that neither of you are good at. So that exploration and that discovery comes for both of you at the same time. Kim and I came in, I did that with a shooting class, we both wanted to learn how to safely handle and shoot a gun, and neither of us had taken a class before. And we did that together. I enjoyed shooting in different formats. And she had not done a lot of it. And we were both rookies together, both novices together. And that shared experience is something that we still do today. And we had a lot of fun doing it, because we are on the same level. And truth be told, she’s a better shooter than I am. She’s more effective, because she’s calmer, more methodical and more relaxed. And I’m usually more forceful and trying to muscle something instead of relaxing and allow it to happen. But that’s a great opportunity of an activity that neither of us had done. And we learned about together. So I agree having fun. And you know, Chris made a comment, you’ve heard us say this before, leaning into your partner and turning towards them in the small things. There are so many things throughout a day really, you probably if you’re with your partner a lot, you have 10s 20s 100 times a day where you can connect with them. And when they give a bid or open a door for you to walk through it, walk through it, get the connection, it can be as little as much as “oh my gosh, it’s so hot out here today.” “Oh, it is I can’t believe Summer’s here. I’m sweating. What can we do that would be fun together in the heat?” Right? We’re connecting, we’re talking and so you said turn towards them in the small things, which I think is huge.

Kimberly Hoffman 27:23

And friends, we have to dream together. I think it’s so important, regardless of what the ability or the finances are. Let’s dream together. And let’s dream big. Let’s set goals. You know, let’s just, let’s just have fun thinking about what could be

Matthew Hoffman 27:42

Yeah, I think you have to be willing to take limitations, doesn’t matter what your finances are or are not If the logistics could allow it but just dream. In other words, if money and time were not issues, what would you like to do individually? Or what would you like to do together? And because you’ll probably end up learning and creating those bonds of intimacy together. And I think, Gosh, one of the last things came, I remember, I think Natalie talked about this, she said, whenever you’re entering an environment with your partner, enter with a positive perspective. Look for the positive, she said, “You might come home, and you might see your spouse on the floor playing with the kids. But then you also see dirty dishes in the sink.” She said, don’t worry about the dishes in the sink. But look at the interaction that your partner is having with the kids. And then go make yourself part of it. The other stuff can wait. But choose to engage in the positive things in your environment first, and come back and look at those negative or difficult things in other time.

Kimberly Hoffman 28:38

That’s great advice. Because I feel like as a mom, you’re walking in on this scene, right? You’ve just scanned the room and you’ve seen a pile of dirty dishes. Maybe everything’s still on the table from dinner and dad’s on the floor playing with the kids and they’re laughing and rolling around having a great time. And it’s so easy for us to get caught up in “oh my gosh, no one cleaned, either to clear the table or do the dishes.” But she’s right, you have got to look at the good that’s going on and just see this beautiful family playing over in the corner and having a wonderful time together. Because what’s more important at the end of the day, it’s that time that we have that we share with each other that really makes the most of the day

Matthew Hoffman 29:25

I couldn’t agree more Kim. No one is going to remember how clean your house was, how good the countertop looked. But you are going to remember the shared experiences of play, and fun and discovery and joy and laughter. You’re going to remember the crying and the sad times as well. But it’s those shared experiences that are really the mortar that build the strength of the relationship.

Kimberly Hoffman 29:49

Yes. So back to Relationship Nirvana. As you can see, it’s a lot of little things done consistently over time through the peaks and the valleys that help you to achieve Relationship Nirvana, it’s a journey. It’s a, it’s a work in progress. It’s a continued work in progress.

Matthew Hoffman 30:14

It is. And you know, if you haven’t heard the interview “Relationship Nirvana” with our panel of marriage therapists, go check it out. I mean, I’m gonna listen to it again. There’s so much stuff we haven’t even unpacked today. I think anybody can benefit from it. Whether you are thinking about marring, you’ve been married five years or married 50 years, it doesn’t matter. And really, Kim, this whole foundation is what we’ve built our platform, Kickass Couples podcast and Kickass Couples Nation is here to serve you, to help imperfect couples. And we are one of those imperfect couples. Learn how to prioritize your number one relationship and deepen and strengthen the bond so you can feel happier, more joy and more rewarding. So if you would like to have a stronger relationship, and invest more and feel better about your number one, go to KCN. If you look at www.matthewphoffman.com we’ve got a membership community. We have monthly webinars twice a month with our panel of marriage therapists, some of the ones you talked to today are on there. And we go deep dives on the relationship pillars that we have and teach you how to recognize things, give you tools, give you exercises, practices, examples, resources, all in an effort to help you thrive and reach that Relationship Nirvana.

Kimberly Hoffman 31:33
Yes. And thank you, Natalie. Thank you, Jeff, and Chris, for all of your incredible advice to our

listeners.

Matthew Hoffman 31:42

So many great things. We appreciate you joining us today. And we hope at the end of the day that you just remember one thing

Kimberly Hoffman 31:49
happily ever after doesn’t just happen, my friends, it’s on purpose.

Matthew Hoffman 31:55 We’ll see you out there.

Kimberly Hoffman 31:57

That’s all we’ve got for this episode of the Kickass Couples Podcast. If you liked the content of the show, you’ll love Matthews newly released book, “Kickass Husband: Winning At Life, Marriage and Sex.” To receive a digital mini book of quotes and images from the book, all you have to do is rate the show and leave a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you tune into this and then email us a screenshot of your review at podcast at kickass couples podcast.com. And we’ll get it over to you right away. Until next time, remember happily ever after doesn’t just happen. It’s on purpose.