Skip to main content
Kickass Couples Podcast

How to Divorce Proof Your Marriage – Ep. 129 SPECIAL – Ft. Andrea Morgan

By November 15, 2023No Comments



divorce, people, person, relationship, work, marriage, spouse, andrea, deserving, love, married, client, couples, communication, years, happen, feel, today, pride, issues


Kimberly Hoffman, Matthew Hoffman, Andrea Morgan


Matthew Hoffman  00:02

Welcome back, everybody to the Kickass Couples Podcast. We are looking forward to a special episode today. Really titled How to divorce proof your marriage and joining us to talk about the ins and outs and what you can do to keep on the right side of marriage is Andrea Morgan. Welcome, Andrea. We are so glad to have you with us today.


Andrea Morgan  02:32

Thank you, Matt and Kim, I’m really happy to be here. And I actually am. This is gonna sound twisted but I am a divorce attorney that loves when people can avoid it. They can say whatever their issues is, have lots of thoughts on the matter. But I will let you open the thing.


Matthew Hoffman  02:32

Well, you have a unique perspective. Because I would like to if you could share with us a little bit of your history and experience. You know, it’s kind of like people say the D word because they it’s like, you know, it’s like Voldemort, right? You don’t want to say his name. Because if you say it, it might become real people hate to say the word, divorce. And when we’re talking to couples, we say, there’s a lot of things you can do. So you never have to so give me what uh, tell me about your share with our listeners, what your perspective is, and how you got into doing what you’re doing. 


Andrea Morgan  03:25

Yeah, I have a few really interesting points on that, first of all, and almost every divorce I’ve ever handled. With rare exception, only one person wants to divorce. The other person doesn’t want the divorce. And what always strikes me is that if the person who doesn’t want the divorce is blindsided. The person mourning the divorce should have done their due diligence. And said, listen, when you do x, y, z, it really makes my blood run cold. If we don’t work on it, we’re not going to you know, we’ve got to work on it together. Right? And that doesn’t have a whole lot to be imperfect candor. What I also find fascinating is a statistic that is pretty much true, true over and over and over again. The amount of time that passes by, when it pops into one person’s head usually what usually one spouse, the D word I call it got to is and an act and further explain picking up the phone calling a lawyer or doing some online research. Or you know, hiring a lawyer is the best example of this step and birth or x is three to five years. Wow. So what I find really fascinating is there was a window that The levy, I can’t leave more leaving the one leaving and the one being left. If they had known the grievances that were slowly brewing over these three to five years that marriage could have been saved, and most cases, and most cases, but people tend to sweep them under the rug. I mean, I love your three C’s, and I love your 14 pillars. It is so true if the spouse that is blindsided had a clue, or was given an opportunity, and I’m talking about more subtle issues, I’m not talking about, you know, the bigger ones where there’s substance abuse, or a person who has mental health challenges that refuses to get therapy. I’d love to get an opportunity to talk about cheating, if there is time.


Matthew Hoffman  05:58

 Yeah. And so you talked about stats, and I want to kind of share in case you didn’t know, you probably know a lot of this. And I think in our previous conversations, we touched on it. There are some stats on divorce in our country right now, about 90% of people in Western culture, they married by age 50. That means 90% of the people that were living in, in this continent get married before they’re 50. But every 13 seconds, there’s a divorce in the US every 13 seconds during the time that we’ve been talking today, a dozen people have already gotten divorced, right. And in the United States, the old stat was 50%, meaning you had a 50/50 chance if you got married, of making it. And it even got, I think, a little worse in most recent years. And the scarier status people guys with the wrong person. And it does happen sometimes, right. Sometimes we don’t get it right for one reason or another. But the stats on second and third marriages just get worse, 60% and second, and almost 70% of third.


Andrea Morgan  07:00

You would think just the opposite, you would think just the opposite. and prevention of divorce, like the pre treatment, I call it where people are involved and wise enough to go talk to someone like you guys, and to make sure their visions and ideals for the future are aligned. None of us have crystal balls on know which way we’re going to end up growing. But just acknowledging there’s going to be change, there’s going to be growth. And in the event out there, you start feeling like it’s going like this. That’s the time to address it. If people can be told that before they’re married, you know, get that good, premarital professional to talk about these things. Because there will be times where it is not blissful, though, there will be challenges. And what I admire so much about what you guys do is you teach people how to work through those. 


Matthew Hoffman  08:03

Right. Yeah, there’s


Kimberly Hoffman  08:04

Getting help is is critical. When you get to that stage, and when it’s necessary. I want to back up just a little bit, because you’ve had a ringside seat for many years to uncoupling. So I’d be really interested to know from you, Andrea, what do you see as maybe the leading cause of divorce? What do you see repeated over and over again, in your practice, as being a cause for divorce.


Andrea Morgan  08:35

Trust and honesty, which links directly to you guys, three C’s communication. Over and over and over again, I see you time and time and time again. And although there’s no fault in this, I do not judge I just help people through miserable circumstances. That’s how I see it that I liberate people when it’s right for them to divorce when they’ve had marital counseling and even counselor Yeah, my counselor said, we have no business being in a marriage together. But that those three to five years, years, and I asked every single client, every single client says the same thing. So if either the person I’m representing could have said hey, three to five years ago, this is what’s going on in my head. And, and these are the things that I see that you know, we both need to work on. Don’t ever do that you do this and you never do that you you always do this to steer clear of that. And make sure that we all have stories in our head. None of us out there true. The only way to find out is to talk about it is to communicate about it. Um and I have had a couple of cases. Not a lot, I’ve wished I feel like more, where people discover their love for each other, like it reinvigorated is going through the divorce process and dawns on them, oh my gosh, I don’t want to not be with this person ever, forever, you know. And it dawns on them, they, that one or the other, both, were just going through some kind of existential crisis or hit a wall that they didn’t think they were going to be able to, you know, repair. 


Matthew Hoffman  10:39

So what I hear you saying  is that communication is huge. And it’s the truth, honestly. So there’s not truthful and honest communication about what’s going right, what’s going wrong, or what needs to be done. And, you know, you’ve probably heard the expression and I’ll share it again. People don’t get divorced for conversations they had. It’s for conversations they’ve never had, 


Andrea Morgan  11:01

right and yeah.


Matthew Hoffman  11:02



Andrea Morgan  11:02



Matthew Hoffman  11:03

I’m gonna ask him, I’m gonna kind of turn the tables a little bit. So we heard you say that communication Kim. What do you think is the number one reason that people are getting divorced, if you had to, or from your experience or your perception, I


Kimberly Hoffman  11:14

Would have to say that the lack of commitment to doing the work that it takes to stay married? That would be probably my answer. I think that too many of us get married, and we go through that warm and fuzzy stage. And then when we get to work in it a couple of years, maybe we’ve even started having children, and it gets a little bit more difficult. And I think that people just there, they forget to be committed to doing the work that it takes day in and day out, to stay together. And as we know, it’s not easy. And I think some people sadly are just ignorant. They don’t know any better.


Matthew Hoffman  11:56



Kimberly Hoffman  11:57

We haven’t learned what it takes. So let me ask you, Matthew, what do you think it takes to stay together? 


Matthew Hoffman  12:05

Yeah, well, I think it’s, to me, it’s prioritization, and it ties into some of the communication that you shared, that’s critical communications, that glue that kind of goes through and ties everything together. And if you don’t have good communication, it’s never gonna happen. But I think commitments like that cornerstone, right? If it’s in place, I think it’s an issue of prioritization. I think that we, if a relationships not working, it’s because one or both people, it’s a two way street. It’s not like one’s an angel and one’s the devil. Right? And all the I’m sure when people come to you, Andrea, it’s not like, oh, it all all the issues are with one person. And you know, it’s always there’s always, even if the other person is like, I’m blindsided. I didn’t know, it’s like, well, wait a minute, why didn’t you know, right? Hold on, you got to take some accountability. But I think it’s prioritization.


Andrea Morgan  12:50

That’s right. It’s never completely one person’s fault. Never.


Matthew Hoffman  12:54

Yeah. Never. Yeah. And I think it’s prioritization, because if I am putting any one for anything ahead of her now, I’m not talking about, you know, spiritually, or, you know, yeah, I mean, we’re devout Christians. And that’s a huge part of who we are faith, faith and moral code is one of our pillars. So she knows God comes first. But the first human is her. I didn’t put a friend, another family member, not our kids, not somebody at work, not somebody in the community. There is no one or no thing more important than her. And I think if more people were willing to be more selfless, and thinking of what can I do for my partner, as opposed to well, what have they done for me lately? And you know, how come they’re not fulfilling my needs. Right?


Andrea Morgan  13:01

So very true.


Matthew Hoffman  14:05



Andrea Morgan  14:35

Does your partner feel heard? Does your partner feel prioritized? Does your partner feel safe in the relationship? And you know can I love you said it so eloquently. The you know, I’m not gonna go laying the internet and these platforms and stuff, but they don’t they have not helped. You know, it’s easy to forget that you have someone very special. Here’s how I explain to some people that need to hear it. There are approximately 8 billion people on the planet. Out of all those people. How many did you have a gay dating relationship with? Okay, now we’re getting into double digits normally, someone dated a lot before marriage. Okay, so out of those 20 people, how many of those people didn’t you have sexual intimacy with? Okay, so the number gets smaller. And out of those people, how many did she marry? And so once they see it that way, you know, it clicks that this is an important sacred alias. You know, this didn’t just happen by accident, I’m very much I’m Faith Based as well, I have a little, a little fish because my marker wouldn’t let me do anything bigger than that. But there’s a little fish symbol on the left for a bit of my website, and had to fight for that. But you know, the tenets of the law of the universe, the laws of the universe of natural laws, that’s your mate. That’s not somebody, you should just kick to the curb over some small transgression, because we are all humans. And I’ve written several articles on what you don’t see in couples. That are what you what you see in couples that are not on the divorce path.


Matthew Hoffman  16:45

Yeah. So I had a question for you, Andea. So we talked earlier about, you know, there’s, you said, a lot of people, something that you shared with us was, a lot of people might come in your office, one of them says, gosh, I never saw it coming. Let’s address that issue in that elephant. So what is that really realistic? How can how can one person in a relationship if they’re sitting in your office, saying I want and one of them’s going, I gotta get away from this person? How can that other person truthfully can they truthfully say, I mean, is that a, it’s certainly how they feel. But Is there truth in that, that somebody, one person in this relationship can never see it coming? Talk to me about that.


Andrea Morgan  17:30

It’s a very good question. Because once you get to know someone really well, it’s like, I’m married to my client for for the months that we’re going through this process together. There have been cases very few, where the other spouse just turns on them like a dime. And there truly is no finding, there’s no closure, there’s no finding out what happened. We don’t know if there was another person involved there. Just pack up their stuff move out, and I hear from their attorney. And my client is sobbing on the phone. You know, what, what is one other thing I’ve learned people think of women as being, you know, the ones that are so traumatized, it’s traumatizing for both to leave or leave the, but I have had grown out the male marine type, you know, sobbing, that their wife told him that they want her to Morse. And I believe in these instances, without, without using any judgment, the person in that position of being blindsided must have been doing this, you know, because it took the person leaving them three to five years to take a step in furtherance. So I agree with you. Sometimes it’s because the person just can’t see how or doesn’t care how their behaviors or actions are affecting their spouse.


Matthew Hoffman  18:58



Andrea Morgan  18:59

And they just are blind to it. However, I have had those cases where the more I dug in, it was really true. It was a total mystery. Why the other spouse wanted a divorce. Like I can think of the 1000s of cases, I’ve had three cases where the spouse I represented and no idea and I never it was never uncovered during the process. 


Matthew Hoffman  19:28

It’s a minority, right? You’re saying yeah, no way, like, that’s doesn’t happen too often. So in most cases, there’s there’s some awareness or they think if they think about it.


Andrea Morgan  19:38

If they think about it, they figure it out, or I help them figure it out. Or they learn, you know, they learn through the divorce process. Many times they figured out what it was.


Matthew Hoffman  19:50



Andrea Morgan  19:51

And I’ve had people ask for second chances, once they understood what it was. And in this one particular case, I’m thinking of it was It was refused. But I have seen people have an awakening about their actions and behavior and driving their spouse away during the process. So since, you know, your vantage point is what can we do to keep it from getting to that point? And if you’re teaching people, which I know you are, about them importance of commitment about the importance of communication, about the importance of trust and honesty, then that’s going to spare a lot of people. You know 


Kimberly Hoffman  20:39

Let’s talk about that a little bit. Let’s break that down a little bit. What are for our listeners that are struggling there? They are finding themselves in this place. So we’re going down two different paths. What can we do to pull it back together? What are some things that we can actively do right now, to help us get to a better place? What are some of those things, Matthew, that we could start doing? Let’s start just spouting off some of those.


Matthew Hoffman  20:39



Matthew Hoffman  21:10

 Well, it’s interesting because the light kind of doesn’t matter what the reason is, some people say it could be let’s say, Listen, one of them saying, well, there’s financial issues. So whatever, whatever it is that you’re like me is not happening in the relationship. Let’s I’m going to pick financial. So that’s something that people argue about a lot. He’s such a spender. Oh, my gosh, she holds her wallet in her backside. And she won’t even spend a dime on XYZ. She’s so stingy. Right. So whatever the issue is, I think it comes back to Kim communication. So if finances if if and that’s a symptom, people don’t get divorced because of finances, 


Kimberly Hoffman  21:45

because they’re not having conversation.


Matthew Hoffman  21:47

 They’re not having a conversation about what Yeah, their money stories everybody brings, man, we talked about this a lot, Andrea, and I’m sure you see it in your practice. People bring baggage to the relationship. I got mine, she has hers. And the question is, we don’t have to get rid of the baggage as we got to understand what brat baggage you’re bringing? And how do we deal with it? And you know, what are her triggers? What’s things she’s concerned about? Am I meeting her needs? And likewise, so, Kim, I think discussion about finances, for example, 


Kimberly Hoffman  22:16

Back to communication.


Matthew Hoffman  22:17

Yeah, it’s back to communication


Kimberly Hoffman  22:18

Ability within that communication, I would have to say is so important, we have to be willing to come with our total open truth, right? About how we’re


Andrea Morgan  22:31



Kimberly Hoffman  22:32

Feeling. So vulnerability is huge. I also think that there are other things that we can do to foolproof our marriage. I think we need to be dating each other constantly. I think we need to be having a dreaming together. And 


Andrea Morgan  22:45

Oh, the love magic is, is critical. Little things and the thoughtful things and 


Kimberly Hoffman  22:53

Right. Being thoughtful showing gratitude and appreciation often, there’s so many things that I think that we don’t do when I said, getting back to commitment and doing the little things. It’s the little things every day that make a difference in our relationship. 


Andrea Morgan  23:09

Right. When someone’s feeling cherished, and respected and heard, then that’s going to be a person and a happy marriage. 


Matthew Hoffman  23:20



Andrea Morgan  23:20

There’s balance, assisting them, and feeling those positive feelings that keeps them married. And I so appreciate the idea that you guys have, you know, what, I think I’m calling this job continuum of learning can add support for somebody over the span of their marriage, because of course, there are going to be things that are like, Oh, my God, this is huge. This is going to blow this whole thing up. But if they know where to go first and try to communicate, trust and be honest with each other. I think try that first. I think a lot of marriages can be saved. There’s, there’s I see so much pride, you know, at the root of divorce so much.


Matthew Hoffman  24:11

And let’s dig into that a little bit. You say pride and it’s interesting because pride means self. It doesn’t mean self respect, self love and cherish. We have to respect ourselves in a relationship because otherwise we’re doormats. I’m not deserving. And I’ve got to give and I’ve got to do well, wait a minute, what about me? It doesn’t mean me first, but self care is good. But pride is very different than self care. Pride is saying, I’m more important. I’m more deserving. I bring more I do more or I’m better in the relationship than they are right. And it’s kind of that self importance thing. It’s not you know, one of our pillars is servant leadership and pride is the opposite of that. Servant leadership is what can I do to pour into the person I love and care for that? I said I do too. That’s servant leadership. Pride is what are they going to do for me? How can they recognize my value? Right? And make me go higher? And that’s, you know, that’s kind of even could even step into narcissism in some relationships.


Andrea Morgan  25:14

Right. And if yes, absolutely it does, and my industry when it’s the levy, the person being left, being so prideful about it, I often wonder, well, they didn’t have so much ego and pride about Oh, fine, you don’t want to be married me fine. When you know, they’re not fine. They are so far from vine that they’re solving, you know, the first couple of weeks that I know them as a client, they are solving our hearts all out, that is coming from somewhere. To me, it just screams this marriage can be saved. If someone is that broken, about the prospect of losing their wife or husband, to me is just a huge red light that this marriage probably can be saved. And I’m more than happy to refer them to your treats. And this is something that I didn’t really have a chance to find out. Do you do pre retreats do you do before people get married, assistance?


Matthew Hoffman  26:22

Yeah, we do. It’s interesting. You brought that up. So I we have a KCN coaching.  Kickass Couples Coaching. And that can happen at any point in a relationship, it can happen to somebody that is early on, we’re like we’re dating and we’re gonna get married, or we just got married. And it lays the foundation because it’s really based on those things that we’ve been talking about today. Commitment, communication, and conflict resolution, those three C’s. And you know, when you’re young, you kind of don’t know what you don’t know. And you have to learn how to learn like, Okay, how are we going to relate in our relationship? Some people don’t ever learn that I was speaking to a client earlier today, who is 62. And they’re older, and they said, Man, I’ve gotten it wrong, and I want to get it right. And I want to the last 25 or 30 years 20% of my life. I want it to be in a great relationship that I love, and I’m cherished, and I get what I need. And I want to give what they need. Help me do that. So,


Andrea Morgan  27:20

and God hears that. But that is a starting point. And I don’t know if you’re familiar with a very famous podcaster, Lewis Howes School of Greatness. 


Matthew Hoffman  27:30

Yeah, he’s great. 


Andrea Morgan  27:31

He was a man he was too hate that word too, what his pattern was that he just would let a woman walk all over him. So after it happened multiple times, you know, saw the pattern smart man, he went in dove into the therapies that were necessary for him to learn his self worth to learn. You deserve someone respect. I thought it was so cute. He he said he was not even going to date for it was a pretty long time, he was just gonna focus on what’s on the inside that’s causing this pattern. For these three years. He was very young man, when he discovered that anybody see this better. So it’s funny that within a year of him intensive therapy a couple times a week, I can’t remember the other things he was doing but a lot, a lot to get over this false personal belief that he had about himself that he wasn’t worthy. 


Matthew Hoffman  28:38



Andrea Morgan  28:39

And within a year, he meets his fiance, Martha, she’s amazing. They decided to go to Sedona and have this pre a retreat, pre marital retreat, and talk over what the revisions were for the future and growth.


Matthew Hoffman  28:55

 They’re investing. 


Andrea Morgan  28:56

If that were to happen more, that would have been more people getting married. As I tell people, This is God is my witness, you know, scholar, their style. I love when people don’t get divorced, when I meet someone and I, usually I tell them if I’ve not met him before, I’m an anthropologist, because I really feel like I’m more of an anthropologist that has more sincerity. You know, people’s interactions are so fascinating and me and people are just so fascinating to me, but when I meet somebody new before I tell them the truth of what I do, I’m not that I’m ashamed of it. I feel I’m a liberator of people and miserable circumstances that can’t be solved otherwise, sure. Before for I handed my card and said, My hope is that you never have to use this. Anyone you know, or any of your friends or any of your family. I never have to hear me. But if I do, you’re gonna have someone in your corner who’s compassionate and experienced and gets you through this out and and onto the other side of light. 


Kimberly Hoffman  31:05

I love what you said. And I love that you used Lewis Howes as an example, because I do like him very much. And I think it was did. And I want our listeners to hear this. I think what Lewis really did was Lewis started working on himself. 


Andrea Morgan  31:21



Kimberly Hoffman  31:22

he became the vet the very best version of Lewis. 


Andrea Morgan  31:26



Kimberly Hoffman  31:26

could be. And I really believe that we’re in when we’re in a relationship, and it’s going south, if we can really work on ourselves and continue to grow ourselves. And even if our spouse maybe in that moment, isn’t willing to come along, but they see the change in us. They see the yes, they see all of these great things that their spouse is striving to do. And it’s attractive. And they’re there thinking, wow, I want some of that. And so I


Andrea Morgan  32:01

Right, I don’t want to lose this. 


Matthew Hoffman  32:03



Kimberly Hoffman  32:03

Part of that is really healing. And that is personal growth.


Matthew Hoffman  32:10

Yeah, I want to follow up on that what Kim said, Andrea, and you brought out as well is in your story about Lewis, he did such a beautiful job of two things. He knew a he was deserving of a good relationship, that’s self belief and self worth, and that he was capable. So everybody that we talked to and work with has to believe I’m deserving, I should I deserve this. And I’m capable, meaning I’ve got it, it just has to be brought out. It’s kind of like a flower when a flower is before it buds. If you go out and try to rip the petals open, because you want to see how pretty it is you’re gonna kill the flower. But if you nurture it, and feed it the right conditions, it’s gonna bloom we all have that internal capacity that we’re capable, and deserving. And the other thing I want to follow up on, and I think we all of us have mentioned this today is in a relationship, you are only responsible for you and what you do, I can’t make Kim, do anything. I can’t say you have to you gotta I can say, in our relationship, this is what I need from you. These are my needs, and I hope you’re willing to give me what I need. So I can be my best. And then she’s gonna say the same thing to me and say, Okay, I this is what I hear you saying? Yep, that’s right. Let me clarify, for me to be the best person I can be. And then what do I need to do for you? So all I can control, I got to communicate and have the conversation. But then I just got to work on delivering to her what she needs, period. That’s all I can do. And then we get that spillover. And that goodness, she’s pouring into me so much. Oh, my gosh, I won our contest the competition we have with each other because who can love the other one better? That’s the competition we have not I’m right, I’m smarter. 


Andrea Morgan  34:06

It’s not about I’m right. You’re so right about that. You’re so right about that. There was a thought that I had around that topic. Okay, in Florida, where I practice, there is no acknowledgement of no legal acknowledgement of a separation. But I depending on the circumstances, the client and how their spouse is treating them. I recommend what is their family, you could go and just spend some time to process what’s going on then regroup with knowledge you work on yourself. Go find a therapist, if you already talk these things through a psychologist who specializes and family therapy and counseling and give it give it a break before you go doing something permanent. And this happens a lot in the context of cheating. And I know at some point you didn’t want to hit on that. I don’t know if that’s now but I’ve written an article. Yeah, if your spouse has cheated, don’t immediately think you have to go run and get a divorce. 


Matthew Hoffman  35:25

Right. It’s interesting. You mentioned earlier, infidelity is huge and, and cheating, too. And that gets back to what I’m gonna do a comeback to trust, right? trust and security. And, you know, you can it takes a long time to build up trust years, loss of deposits. Yeah, like one act of cheating or infidelity just wipes that account out. And it’s really up to the individual, you know, you kind of ask the question, and can people recover from cheating? Absolutely, you can. But it take can people, I mean, one person’s gonna own it, and say, Man, I screwed up. And, and I did it. I’m gonna ask you to forgive me, give me the chance to show you to demonstrate it’s not just a one and done. And we’re back and the trust is there. Right? But it can be recovered from if you work to rebuild that trust. And it’s not just words, words are important, but it’s demonstrated action consistently over time. 


Kimberly Hoffman  36:30

Over time. Yeah. And that’s to say that, you know, in infidelity, that it’s never okay, I’m not condoning the cheater, but usually the other person, the other party had something to do with that person’s decision. 


Andrea Morgan  36:47

That’s right. 


Kimberly Hoffman  36:48

comeback to 


Andrea Morgan  36:51



Kimberly Hoffman  36:51



Andrea Morgan  36:52

you got to look in the mirror, you got to look in the mirror also.


Kimberly Hoffman  36:56

Not that it was right. But there were issues there that led those people apart from one another. And so really getting back to what those issues are, is so important. Cheating aside, what are what are we really what’s the root of our challenge here?


Matthew Hoffman  37:13



Andrea Morgan  37:14



Matthew Hoffman  37:14

And that kind of begs the question, and I want to ask you, do you think it is ever too late to come back from the brink of divorce? And and then based on that answer, if so, what would it take? Like? Do you feel like, oh, my gosh, it’s impossible to commit when people think one or the other? Or both? We need to get divorced? Do you think it’s possible to recover from that? And what has to be present for that to happen? 


Andrea Morgan  37:40

That is a tough question. I mean, it isn’t it isn’t, because I know what I think about it, there are certain actions people can take that can utterly do this. There’s no save, there’s no therapy that’s going to fix it, it just washes the marriage typically involves substance abuse, where there’s been repeated attempts at rehab, or have failed, and the person just truly is a shell of themselves and feels absolutely zero love for the person and an active addiction. Nurse narcissists, and I really can’t stand labels, I can’t stand using them. But I’ve been out with a lot of great psychologists because I incorporate them in my work. And there’s lots of collaborative groups that practice divorce in this manner, they bring in a neutral psychologist, and I’ve been schooled by them that the other two scenarios are hopeless, right off the bat is the person having full blown narcissistic personality disorder or pedophilia. Those areas, you know, an addict, I’m able to be in recovery. True narcissistic personality disorder, and true Pedophilia


Matthew Hoffman  39:15



Andrea Morgan  39:15

 are physical, physical abuse, those things you can’t come back from. And they’re proven that I’m gonna leave out the physical violence for a minute, just let’s focus on the other three. The other three, it’s been clinically proven they can’t be helped. 


Matthew Hoffman  39:32



Andrea Morgan  39:33

 They can learn to modify their behavior. And if the person at the brink of despair and about to get a divorce, if they could have the, you know, hear from the other spouse and a professional venue like a psychologists office. Here is what I’m willing to do to modify my behavior. So we don’t have to get a divorce. 


Matthew Hoffman  39:56



Andrea Morgan  39:56

That’s super intense and would take a really long time. 


Matthew Hoffman  40:00

Yeah. There are some there’s definitely some nonstarters, I would agree with you. And you know, you can’t you can’t be in a physically or even mentally abusive relationship that doesn’t change. And people say, Gosh, should I stay? Well, you know, if, if the perpetrator or the person that’s engaged in that behavior or has that sickness or that addiction, isn’t able, or isn’t willing to change, there’s ability and there’s desire, we a lot of us have desire, hey, I’d like to work out five days a week, you know, but I just whether you do that, I just don’t know if I’m able, right? What a lifestyle, a desire issue, right, and nobody should hang out. So if the person that you’re with doesn’t have the ability, and or the desire, you got to make a decision and say, if I’m not willing to live in this behavior for the rest of my life, you know, you they’re going to have a break with, we’re, we’re uncoupling, or that person has to have a breakthrough. So an advice of the breakthrough, like you mentioned, with all the counseling and things that need to be there, there’s not a breakthrough, there’s got to be a break with And anyway, I mean, Andrea, we have, I know, that feels like we’ve barely scratched the surface. But we’ve had some great discussions. And I think, you know, if I had to kind of wrap it up. So you know, in I’m going to ask you to fill in the blank to give us your final thought on this before we learn more about you and tell people how they can connect with you. The key to somebody avoiding divorce is, what would your one or two sentence answer be? To that question based on your practice, and based on your experience, the key to avoiding divorce is what? 


Andrea Morgan  41:48

Not to be plagiaristic. But communication, truth and honesty.


Matthew Hoffman  41:53

Communication, truth and honesty. Beautiful. 


Andrea Morgan  41:56

And you guys nailed that years ago, said that I’ve always felt that way. I’ve always felt that it’s true. There have been so many divorces that I thought if the person were not so prideful, not angry, not so committed to a path of vengeance, there would be a chance for them to, you know, it’s all you know, who they are as a person. And the willingness and the reason for the unwillingness is typically pride I have found 


Matthew Hoffman  42:35



Andrea Morgan  42:35

 on one party’s party or the other. 


Matthew Hoffman  42:37

So great. Well, if so, I appreciate your answer that and our listeners do too. So if people want to get in touch with you, Andrew, if they want to say, Gosh, I might need some help, or I might need some direction, or I’m not sure if I’m there. Where can people find you?


Andrea Morgan  42:53

I own and run the Morgan Divorce Law Firm. I’m very proud of my firm, we are a boutique firm. There’s never 24 hours that go by if a client wants to speak or email with us, or we have a very strict 24 Hour Rule. And that’s because the client is going through a divorce thing they ever had in their lives, generally speaking. And we have a lot of empathy for that. So I have a website and Morgan divorce A simple Google search of Morgan Divorce Law Firm will bring up my youtube channel will bring up all the articles I’ve written, most of which are how to avoid divorce, how not to have to hire me, has been my focus on my YouTube channel on my articles. On my website, helpful articles on my website, and


Matthew Hoffman  43:57

Got some good resources it sounds like. 


Andrea Morgan  43:58

Not hard to find and an easy name to remember. Andrea Morgan.


Kimberly Hoffman  44:03

Thank you so much, Andrea, it’s been great having you today.


Andrea Morgan  44:05

Thank you, Kim.


Kimberly Hoffman  44:07

And if you’re out there listening to us, and you are not happy in your relationship, or you’re even contemplating divorce, I hope you’ll reach out to us. We are here to help. We are here to offer you coaching and assistance through that period of time because we do believe that everybody is deserving of having an incredible relationship deserving and capable. So please reach out to


Matthew Hoffman  44:34

You can go to Matthew And we have a free relationship assessment call and lots of resources and tools that complement the good work that Andrea is doing. We’d love to talk to you. And we love having conversations with people like Andrea because she’s got the experience and we’re we are working in the same vineyard and singing kind of the same song about things that you can do to keep that relationship alive. inactive. And as we sign off today, we want you all to remember, just one thing, and that’s that happily ever after does not just happen. It’s on purpose. So, Andrea, thanks for joining us today.


Andrea Morgan  45:12

Thank you for having me, Matt can as a pleasure keep doing the good work. I without reservation recommend to get clients to join you on your quest to keeping divorce out of the picture. It’s just healthier for everybody.


Matthew Hoffman  45:28

Our pleasure, we will look forward to sharing and talking more with you soon.


Andrea Morgan  45:32

Thank you.